Hello, We are living in Manila and have small creatures masquerading as humans running about (boys 7 & 5). We arrived in October 2001 and came with my husband's work. This is a great list for info on the Philippines. Another good source for info on Manila - a little more young family oriented is www.passport2manila.com . I am also in email contact with another family who is moving from Australia to Manila after the holidays. Fire away with any questions, if I can't answer there are many more experienced folk on the list. Happy Holidays everyone.

Belgium don't allow the dual citizenship. The trick would be to ask for the Filipino Nationality WITHOUT telling the Belgian authorities I acquired the Filipino Nationality. Could they ever find out? I would bed on the non communication of two countries far away from each other. I heard that some Filipino's are using two passports. Ask for the Belgian Nationality but still use their Filipino Nationality in the Philippines. Of course it is not legal, the question is it workable? What are the risks?

I am Australian and my wife is Vietnamese/Filipino. She was born in Siagon and moved to Phils when she was 3 years old. Her Mother is Viet and her Father is Filipino. We married in Manila Sept 2001 and she arrived here March 2002. We would like to return to Phils and start a bakery business and would like advice in the road ahead of us! She had a tempory spouse visa here and can get permanent status either in Sept 2003 or when the baby is born in June this year. ( oh yeah, forgot to mention the wife is expecting!) We would both appreciate any feedback.

I'd like to add a couple of observations to this fascinating topic: I agree that there's nothing more heart-tugging than a homesick Filipino. How many suffer badly? It's hard to tell, partly because Filipinos are good at hiding their inner emotions. My wife has told me about her late father's visit to Washington, D.C., in the 1960s on a government assignment. He couldn't stand the weather or the culture and practically fled back to the RP. Don mentioned Daly City, south of San Francisco, about the closest thing in the U.S. to a ""Filipinotown."" When my family vacationed in San Francisco last year, we spent some time with my wife's relatives in Daly City. I remember taking Joy to a mall there where many of the merchants and most of the customers are Filipino. I thought Joy would be in heaven. Instead, people seemed like strangers to her. Few smiles. More like an American crowd. After an hour, Joy was ready to leave (she usually spends all day at a mall :) ). These are isolated snapshots, not necessarily indicative of larger truths. I think the majority of Filipinos adapt pretty well to U.S. culture and rhythms. Some, in fact, adapt TOO well. But some Filipinos are plainly miserable in the role of transplant, and I suspect more than a few others are skillfully hiding their misery. Good fortune to all, .

This has been a previous topic; you can get some more ideas by checking the archives. We are not typical, as we have maintained much of our middle class style of living and are very new to living in the Philippines. Also we are in Makati, which is its own planet. I swear I saw Elvis last week, wearin' shades and Barong. Though I am sure as time goes on we will change to better fit the environment. I have a maid and a driver. They both work for me rather than for my husband who is always at work and drives himself. I am having a difficult time with my management techniques. Though I am learning to be more assertive with my requests. I have never been an employer before; everyone should be required to take a personnel management course before hiring staff. We pay a wage that is high by Filipino standard. Though it is about average compared to wages paid by the people who work with my husband. I pay my all-round maid P7000 + SSS and health. I provide her with two uniforms. This is all-inclusive and she does not receive any other allowances. She does take her meals at the house. We paid her 50% of her Salary for 13th month. We have only employed her for two months, I don't believe that under those circumstances I was required to pay 13th month. She lives out by her choice (she is married with a child) though will come and work evenings or stay the night when asked. She worked for the American family who lived in our house previous to us, she knows our routine and is incredibly self motivated. I look upon her as if she has been in continuous employment by the house even though the inhabitants have changed. So I started her at the wage the previous family was paying her. She is a joy to have around the house. I pay my driver P6500 + SSS and health. He lives in M-F and spends weekends away. He works Saturday and evenings upon request. He is not working out so well and I am probably going to let him go after the holidays. I am always having to chase him down because he is chatting with his pals. I probably do not have enough driving to keep him busy but I do drive my youngest child to and from school each day. Being able to avoid the parking crunch is worth every penny. He is doing a lot of sitting around in the afternoons. I am not familiar with what is paid for a live-in driver or maid. Though I believe that it is a little less because you are offering them the equivalent of room and board. The website www.Passport2manila.com has a very comprehensive section on domestic help. It offers advice on everything from negotiating wages (does not give amounts) to management techniques.

With all respect to Don, I agree with you. Mine is a myopic view, having limited experience with our Filipino residents and with the RP as well for that matter. One thing for sure, Filipinos don't fit a stereotypical mold. Certainly there are many who become homesick at first, but by and large those who have settled in this part of the country have assimilated into society here quite well. They are not unlike any other group of immigrants. Those of my acquaintance are generally successful professionals and business folks. When they gather together they don't act much differently than their relatives in the RP, smiling, laughing and enjoying themselves. Our newly arrived Filipinos take some time to assimilate, but most do quite well. Perhaps those who immigrate to California and Daly City are different from those who settle further north! Then again, these are just my observations from my limited experiences.

Thank you so much for the info. I visited some expat houses (households) and there seems to be two schools. Some are keeping a lot of staff/maids they pay very low wages. As a result they complain that their staff is not motivated. Mostly those personnel are living in ""maid quarters"" which are mostly very little rooms. When you see the difference between the luxury of the houses and the living in quarters of the maids I find it quite appealing. Make me think of Europe in the Middle -Ages. Some other expats prefer to give their personnel better wages to motivate them. Instead of having a lot of staff they have only one or two dedicated people. Yes I can imagine it is not easy to find the right ""middle path"" in dealing with staff. We are not used to have living in maids & drivers in Europe. I am happy you give me an idea of those wages so that I can check them with other sources of information. Someone told me 2500 to 4000 pesos for a living in maid and 6000 pesos for a live in driver. Fine to have someone prepared to give advises and who is at the same time living in Manila.

I can't resist commenting about my lovely wife's first year in the States. You are so right, of course, about being so hard to adjust. It would be for anyone, especially being 7,000 miles form home and not knowing any other Filipinos, nor having any relatives here, which was the case for my wife. I remember the first time she called home. I was sitting next to her trying to console her as she was trying to talk on the phone, crying her eyes out and wringing my hand so hard it hurt me hands. How can one not understand or sympathize with the Filipinos, who are so willing to sacrifice for their families. It doesn't seem right, but it's the way it is for so many. She actually adapted to the weather quickly. We woke up one morning to snow here in the Portland area her first year in Oregon. She ran outside and played gleefully in the snow, enjoying her first snow experience. It hasn't all been easy for her, however. After my wife's father passed away at age 60, and she became a citizen, we were able to bring her Mother here to live with us, but after two years and nine months, her Mother passed away at our home of a ruptured aorta at age 61. Last year, her Aunt, who was her second Mother, died of a heart attack at age 59. My wife has been working ever since one month after arriving in this country. We have helped the family as much as possible to the tune of over $100,000 in the past twelve years, but there is not much progress. Right now we are supporting two of her nieces attending nursing school. I think they are hoping to take over helping the family when they graduate and are able to go to America. Etc., Etc. I can't help but hold the highest regard for the Filipino people, because they are willing to do what is necessary in order to survive, and in many cases, have a better life because of the help of those who are able to go abroad to earn dollars, etc. Like I told my Filfam, 'You are rich in so many ways'. I realize that this is nothing new here, and that you all know this, but I can't help but continue to acknowledge these wonderful people and the love they have for family. FYI, I am a friendly guy, but sort of a loner also. I told my wife when I married her that it was her I was marrying, not her family, but I have since adopted them as my own, since I never had a family outside my immediate one. And I only had a brother that I couldn't get along with, so now you know ' the rest of the story'. I hope I didn't bore you all, but I just thought I had to give the Filipino their due, especially my wonderful wife, Normalita Josephine Alicias Thornton,

Thanks for your story. though you and I have approached the RP from different angles and have different interests, I can identify with nearly everything you have said. I think you have placed your finger on the pulse of life in the RP. Myself, I'm still learning every day I spend in the RP. I too am 65 and have been retired since 1995. It was my choice to share the time between the RP and my life-long home in Seattle. Before I retired I was only able to spend my vacation times in the RP (which happened to be 4 weeks) and since I've been spending from 2 to 6 months a year. Necessarily the hired help I've had have been temporary. For the short time I spent in Cebu City a few years ago, I tried an agency and had a sour experience, so returned to my usual practice of hiring on my own. As you have said, there are a lot of folks eager to work and applicants have never been in short supply. Some girls would happily work for nothing but room and board. It may seem callous or opportunistic to some that we pay such a seeming low salary, but I do it for good reasons. The rate for household help varies from next to nothing to about P1,600-P2,000. Also standard among Filipinos are the perks which include meals, SSS, medical and bonuses. If you are hiring a relative you aren't expected to pay them anything more than a small allowance plus all of their normal living expense but if your housekeeper has been on the job for a long time and has substantial responsibilities they should get paid accordingly. I've paid as low as P800 to the daughter of a lady who was doing my laundry, and as high as P1,600 to a woman who I entrusted with money to do grocery shopping. If she was going to be with me longer I would have raised her salary over time. I understand that these salaries seem low and perhaps even criminal. To think that you'd pay some poor sole only $30 a month when you're getting a hundred times that on a pension or investments! It's my firm belief that by paying more you would also be contributing to that poor sole's change of status in her family and community which is more important than anything else in a Filipino's life. That change would not be a good one because when the money stopped, and it surely would one day, that poor sole would be left without family or community. Don has described his entry into the scholarship business! I think he has taken steps of assimilating into Filipino life that he may not yet realize. A Filipino family and their community share resources :) Most of us who enter Filipino society at some level find a strange unfamiliar landscape. The economy of the RP is so dismal for most. Money is not the answer. The old hackneyed cliché, ""Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach him to fish and you feed him for the rest of his life..."" is absolutely true, IMHO. The best way I know to do this is through education. That means scholarships. Don has found the way surreptitiously through the employment of a helper. I believe that this is the most effective way to use our resources to help.

I am going to give you some information about salaries. But I am going to put a story with it too. You may want to dismiss the story, or you may not. It is not in answer to your question but may be good for your and others to know something about the life of this particular expat here and I am sure others too. I pay my live in Maid, I have one now, P2,200 per month. My Landlord who lives down the street from me recommended I pay no more than P800 the six months and over a period of time raise it to not more than P1,400. He gets his maids from his cousin who owns a sugar plantation in Negros Orental. These young women work very hard, are very honest since he knows their mothers and fathers, an authority figure of long standing with them, but they do not speak English to the extent they could work for most English speaking people. His all live in. Also mine lives in. I would not have a maid that is does not live in because of security. They are my guards too, my social secretaries, guides for my visitors sometimes, and can get me a tea at 3:30 when I get up in the morning. Or that was the case in the past, when I had two solid ones. I lost my main maid to Hong Kong very recently. I think she left the country today or yester! day. I just hired another one, 16 years old. She just graduated high school scholar, at P1,400 to start. She had no money to go to college though that was her dream. My other one is 42, a very sweet woman, who speaks very good English. I once forgot to pay her and she would not remind me. I found she was borrowing money from a money lender. I talked to the money lender. The money lender said she said I decided to stop paying her. I just plain forgot, and she did not have the nerve to complain or even remind me. That is the only time I ever got upset with her. She is going after two years or more to allow her brother who has been taking care of their ailing older sister a chance to see if he can find employment. It is doubtful he can. He cannot speak English and has never had a job before except farm labor that pays less than his sister, my maid makes. And work is rarely available more so at this time of extreme economic depression. My maid, his sister will bake cookies, sell them and take care of the sister who needs medication on what she makes with cookies, maybe P500 per month, and what the brother sends home, probably nothing. The young girl, very smart, had applied for a scholarship to a local university before starting here. She got it a week or so ago. But she didn't have the money to buy for a uniform books shoes, jeep fare, a place to live. She is from about 20 miles south of here. Her here in Cebu would not keep her because of the expense involved. Ani and I talked about it and decided we would pay her expenses and she could work part time. We bought the uniform and other things too. Her school is about five hours a day. We just found out that the scholarship requires that she work for the university eight hours a day. She leaves the house at seven AM and comes back at 9 PM. We were not going to pay here the maid salary, but pay for everything else and pay a salary of P500. But she does not have time to even make a tea for me or go to the post office. She has a job, goes to school and has to study. So she is not a maid anymore! , but a dependent. How did that happen? I don't need another dependent. But how an I let down this girl who just won a scholarship and is working so hard at her studies and her job at school? This story is just to let you know what happens in some households. I have friends here, foreigners who do the same thing. Robert Warren is sending at least one to school that is related to some extent. This girl is not even related to us. But who cares. The sad thing is when she graduates, assuming she does, she will get a job at a department store making maybe $3.00 per day, just enough to live, pay rent and eat. And it will be temporary, no benefits. After six months she will have to look for another one and suffer a month of unemployment at the least. Robert may be sending others too. And of course he has his own children growing up. Robert like me, is retired. He does generate some extra income by his wise and conservative investments. But he, like me, does not have a job. He has no pension, per se, just an income from investments. He could go back to work. I maybe be over the hill for that, emotionally if now physically. Who wants to hire a 65 year old man. :) I was offered a job yesterday by a wild man who that I could do out of my house. No, not as an Avon lady, but a substantial job in a proven very profitable business. But I want a little time for myself and time to be with Ani when she is home. After all, my status is retired. This stuff I do with you wonderful list members is a joy for me. It takes my time but is not work. And I feel my Filipino hosts may benefit from visitors discovering themselves and the Philippines before they come over. I am thankful I have something I love to do to keep me out of trouble. I do know how to get into it. I would probably end up with a educational support foundation. But I refuse to do too much to help young men and women get college degrees so they can work in department stores as temps. I have three of Ani's sisters to send to school, not to mention Ani. Ani is at a relatively expensive school. Because I have some capital, Ani can open a drugstore when she graduates. The others are in high school, very cheap. But one, also a scholar like my maid of one week, my latest dependant, also may get a scholarship. This eldest of Ani's four sisters, still at home. She will start school college and live with us here in Cebu next year. This assumes we don't move off to Davao. We will not until we have visited. And we will not until we are sure we are comfortable with the political stability there, safety and others. The others, I don't think will be any problem. If we do move to Davao we will take Ani's sister with us. The former maid fate is under discussion. Ray Phillmore's compelling description of Davao makes it hard to resist. If he is not working for the Davao City Government he should! be. I have friends looking for a maid for me. If someone very good does not come up with a good one soon, I will go to the agency. The agencies maids are paid P1,500 per month, I believe. And you have to pay the agency P1,500, a one time fee. These workers, unlike our new college student, have been trained or have good experience. Some can cook too, sew, maybe even type. All speak English and all spell better than me. I read in the paper that some group of particularly poor young girls, maybe Muslims in the Mindanao Area are paid P600-P800. Also keep in mind, some employers come up with a sad story on pay day and say, ""Sorry, my maid, no money this month. If you want to leave you can."" Where does a slave go? Some say, ""You have to stay. I will pay you when you can."" The girl will rarely fight. After all, she is getting her food and a place to stay. And she is often terrified of the boss. And if the boss is an older woman, a authority figure like her mother, she will behave as a daughter and not complain regardless of lack of pay, poor food or what ever. Jobs are extremely hard to get. Here is the bottom line. You can pay what ever you want. There are people who are hungry here. They will work for food, even bad food. Some live in maids have maids at their small houses an pay nothing. Just provide a little food and rice to a girl who cannot afford to attend high school. This is much more common than most know. You can pay as much or as little as you want. Some Filipinos are paying nothing. Some, usually foreigners, are taking care of the maid, her family, her relatives, medical bills and paying a good salary too. But they don't have to. And maybe they don't plan too. It just happens. If you are on a tight budget, be careful. If not, be thankful you can help so much for so little.

I should make something clear about hiring a driver (or anyone else). I said in my last post that when you hire a driver you shouldn't try to make him into something else. It is common to hire a driver and give him other responsibilities when he's not driving. These should be defined when you hire him. You want him to tend the garden or do handyman jobs around the house, that's fine. If you want him to do nothing else and chismis with his barkadas while not driving, this is okay too. And these things should be made clear to him when you hire him. If you want to change him, make a friend of him and send him to collage that is fine too, but he's no longer your driver! That's what I meant to say...

I got ahead of you with my last post, I should read them all before replying! I think you have interpreted my thoughts closely however. Among the reasons for paying local rates is to avoid being seen and regarded as the gullible foreigner. When paying local rates however, the perks are also important. I agree that if you hire someone to do a job, that is their job. You may get to know them and may even think of them as a friend, but you don't hire close friends to do a job without relinquishing your position as their employer. If your relationship with them changes in such a way, you'll never get the relationship back the way it was. If you hire someone to do your driving, you don't try to make something else out of him unless you want to find another driver. I have occasions to hire construction workers on various projects. Some of them are also good friends. We keep that relationship well separated, but it's easier to do that because it's like they are on a fixed length contract when they are working. Household help is necessarily much different, and despite the advances we've made with job equality in the states, this is an alien concept in the RP! When in Rome, do as the Romans... Guess I'm rambling now...one of the perks of being 65!

I really don't know how to explain this, Sidney. But a drive is a driver. Part of the perks are sitting around with barkadas. It may be the most important thing in the man's life, his friends and his time with them. Filipino men until recently held hands, even policemen. I guess I should not say recently. I am talking about in the first part of the 80's. It was not so true in Manila then but was common in the province. Where I was in the province above Quezon city, men danced together at dances. These were not gay men. These men had sexual desires only for women. By the 90's I started to see signs, ""No Man to Man Dancing."" The uptight Americans got to them, I guess and made something completely innocent, forbidden and maybe lewd. Sorry for another digression. A driver is a driver. That is what he does. If god wanted him to be something other than a driver he would be. He will wash your car, change your oil, manage the mechanic. Putting him in an improvement program may seem to be belittling his profession. I hope some other will comment on this. It is a very interesting phenomenon, this fatalism and relationships with employees. And it is very complex. I know Ron M. will tell you, and I am sure he is right, if you pay a ""good salary"" more than minimum market you can be considered stupid. Some will take advantage of you, or try. He has written about this before and enlightened many including bring to mind thoughts I had not previously considered. I hope I don't misquote Ron or skew his intent. Sometimes like everyone else, I hear what I want to hear.

When my wife applied her Belgian citizenship 15 years ago I asked the woman if she is allowed to keep her Filipino nationality. She answered me it depends on the Philippine law. If the Philippines allowed her to keep her nationality it was no problem. She also never had to renounce her Filipino citizenship. Might be the law changed now. I don't now. Don't count on hiding dual citizenship. My wife was able to renew her filipino passport until this year but now they asked her ID first (the orange one). Since she has a belgian ID her passport was history. They are computerizing everything since this year. The Belgian and the Filipino government have also a tax agreement. So be careful about your income in the Philippines. They are exchanging information.

BELGIAN LAW AND DUAL CITIZENSHIP: THE BASICS Contrary to what many Belgians think, the Belgian law regarding citizenship does not prohibit dual nationality. A Belgian may hold and keep a second and even a third nationality, besides his/her own. This rule applies in all cases when the other nationality is not specifically requested, but is acquired through birth, marriage or an involuntary act. Only when a Belgian citizen obtains a second citizenship through a voluntary act of his/her own will, does he/she lose Belgian citizenship. A request made to U.S. authorities to acquire American citizenship is, of course, considered an act of will. Children of minor age (under eighteen) would follow their parents in acquiring American nationality and, in such a case, would also follow their parents in losing Belgian citizenship. You can lose your Belgian citizenship without knowing Belgian law foresees, in general terms, that a person who ""does not need"" Belgian citizenship automatically loses it if he/she does not take the appropriate steps with Belgian authorities to retain it. This rule is part of a European effort to prevent the unnecessary multiplication of citizens holding dual nationality. How does the law distinguish between those ""needing "" or ""not needing"" Belgian citizenship? The law presumes you ""do not need Belgian citizenship"" anymore when you were born abroad after 1967, you have acquired a second nationality and have been residing abroad for at least the past ten years. In such cases, you in fact became a long-term resident or citizen of another country. Belgian law considers that you might not have any particular interest in Belgium anymore, and therefore you lose Belgian citizenship. You can always show that you remain interested in holding Belgian citizenship. The way to do that is to sign a declaration, every ten years, in the Embassy or in the Consulate General in the area where you live. This declaration has as the immediate effect that you remain a Belgian citizen for a new period of ten years. For more details regarding the conditions and procedures, please contact the Consular Office at the Embassy or the Consulate General in whose jurisdiction you reside.

Thank you for the information. Well your wife could apply for a Filipino passport in the Philippines. They will never ask if she holds another passport. She just lost her last Filipino passport and applies for a new one. If she don't tell she is a Belgian, how the hell can they know? (Of course she can't ask it in Belgium at the Filipine Embassy.) I can hardly believe there is much information flowing between the two countries. Nothing (or almost) is computarized in the Philippines. I think that is how some of the Filipinos play the game. In the Philippines they claim they are Filipinos and in Europe and the States they acquire another Nationality. Again if you are not active in criminal activities why should the authorities spend time, energy and money to find out? They havealready enough problems to solve in their respective countries. The law forbids it but who cares? It is insignificant for our authorities. Only if there would be a war or if you would go into politics then this could become an issue. I am not active in any criminal activity so I suppose nobody will ever ask any questions about me. Concerning the taxes: I can't be taxed two times. My income generated in Belgium is taxed here (heavily!) and my income generated in the Philippines are taxed in the PH. And again, I am not involved in any criminal activities. I pay my taxes in both countries. I am only a small fish ... They would spend more money to investigate than money they could ever get from me during my whole lifetime...

We know we can get a new Filipino passport in Manila but we are only planning to stay in the Philippines in 2006 so we didn't bother for the mean time. Besides her sister lives in Brisbane. We might go to Australia instead. :) Last time when we were at the embassy I read a paper that starting 2001 they were computerizing the renewal of passports in Manila. Don't know if it will have consequenses. Ook een Vrolijk Kerstfeest en Gelukkig Nieuwjaar in Sorsogon. Je hebt tenminste beter weer dan wij.

I like the way u r doing careful research. The Philippines used to be behind the times in keeping records on a computer. But not any longer. Last month I saw a big notice displayed explaining how Filipinos can now make applications for important documents by going online to Government Websites and applications which used to involve long hours of queing can now be done very quickly by applying online. So more and more of your personal information is now being recorded on computers. A person with a British passport and a Filipino passport has to give up their British passport to regain the rights they had previously as a Filipina.

Well...at least something is computerized in the Philippines...the issuance of a Philippine passport! I don't think it's good to encourage anyone to break the law. For one, the Philippine government does keep track of your income tax. They know if you haven't filed it. Also because that part of the government is computerized. Just because they don't run after you doesn't mean they do not know. Besides what use is a Filipino passport to a former Filipino citizen? She still can own land even if holds a foreign passport. She can come and go into the Philippines as she pleases, they give her a 1 year visa (courtesy of the balikbayan program). If they want to retire here, it's even easier for former Filipino citizens. The Philippine government doesn't allow dual-citizenship but they are working on a law for Filipinos to be able to retain their Filipino Citizenship even if they acquire a 2nd nationality. The law hasn't been ratified yet.

I believe that parts of what you mention have already been upheld and ratified by the Supreme Court. Recall the controversy during the last presidential election when Estrada supporters tried to challenge the qualifications of Ozmania? He is a US citizen. The court ruled in effect that once a Filipino, always a Filipino for the purposes of running for public office.

I believe that parts of what you mention have already been upheld and ratified by the Supreme Court. Recall the controversy during the last presidential election when Estrada supporters tried to challenge the qualifications of Ozmania? He is a US citizen. The court ruled in effect that once a Filipino, always a Filipino for the purposes of running for public office.

I believe that parts of what you mention have already been upheld and ratified by the Supreme Court. Recall the controversy during the last presidential election when Estrada supporters tried to challenge the qualifications of Ozmania? He is a US citizen. The court ruled in effect that once a Filipino, always a Filipino for the purposes of running for public office.

I was with some dear friends yesterday, foreigners too, who have been here for a considerable amount of time. We get along very well considering as someone posted, Ray Bacon I believe, or maybe Ron MaCarthy I believe--that foreigners will cross the street to avoid one another here. As I talked with my dear friends yesterday I noted some of the usual underlying friction. We know it is there, but don't talk about it, find it uncomfortable and are concerned, but accept it. Someone on the list who had not been here, note, ""It is so strange you guys who seem to get along so good list avoid one another."" And we do to a certain extent, some more than others. Last night before going to sleep I did on of my nutty hypnotic things asking my brain to tell me when I work up in the morning why particular problem this goes on. I did dwell on the problem just before sleeping and even pray for an answer from all sources external and internal as I do. But I go no answer from my subconscious, usually very responsive, even as it ages, often correct, though not always. I just took my mid morning siesta, the best habit the Filipinos have ever got me in. And when I work up, a thought did come, not a blaze of insight but maybe a reason. We foreigners here are treated like royalty by Filipinos. We are waited on hand and foot. We are rarely if ever contradicted, treated with less than the kindest courtesy certainly by our workers who are not in the habit of being contentious with their employers under any circumstances. Everyone is asking our opinion and responding like we just spoke some great truth. I am not sure if they believe it, but they certainly never contradict nor even indicate that we are any less than brilliant demigods, at the very least. Even our neighbors, professional, well traveled to the US and other places some with educations and brains far better than ours, respect us maybe for our age, maybe for our status as foreigners and being from developed countries. They seem like they think maybe we had something personally to do with the success of our countries, tough that is certainly not true and surely they know it. It must just be the Filipino courtesy. I have no idea what some may say behind our backs. So it is rare we are challenged or disputed here. But when we are with other expats, in the heat of conversation and someone says, ""No, Don, that is dead wrong,"" you know they can't be talking to you even if you call your name. You have never been wrong, or at least it has been so long you can't remember. Or at least that has been the case with your Filipino friends and employees. No mater how twisted your mind may be to the Filipino, they accept you, treat you with respect simply because you are human and a guest, one of Gods creatures. The other foreigners expect you to be a little wise too, at least able to chew gum and walk at the same time, to earn that respect, and quick. I have seen one foreigner contradict another foreigner here crudely, like some foreigners treat their helpers and employees just because they can get away with it, and all hell break lose. Maybe the aforementioned artificial utopian interpersonal relationships we have set up with some of the locals make us less tolerant and more sensitive to criticism to the point of often avoiding one another, certainly not seeking one another out. Why risk a relationship with a fellow foreigner(s), relationships in which there could be conflict? This seems especially stupid, when you well know you interact with only Filipinos and avoid all friction, and sail on culture of ""pakikisamaa,"" smooth interpersonal relationships? Maybe that is not ""the"" answer. But it is all my genie gave to me, so I share it. I am always thankful for any even slightly logical explanation for a vexing problem. Maybe someone has thoughts to augment mine. BUT THEY BETTER NOT CONTRADICT ME!

Hello all, Last Sept 15, I received notification from INS that we had obtained initial approval for the Fiance (K-1) visa we had applied for, with an expiration date of Jan 9, 2002. I called my fiance Ligaya to tell her and also suggest that she go to Manila ""soon"" and apply for police clearances from HK and Singapore and also the NBI. I also told her that the clearances were required (perhaps a little too sternly, but not angrily, but she thought that they ""might not be"") but I could tell that her mood had changed a bit. FYI, a police clearance is required from all countries in which the sponsee has lived since age 16. Ligaya's intention was to wait for the package from the consulate to arrive before beginning. After a week of trying to contact the consulates from here in the US (Singapore was great, never did get HK, but Ligaya had the info), I took a chill pill and said to her, ""you do what you think best"". Last month, FAXED US Embassy, no response, no idea of what is goin on. January 9 looms. Monday, Ligaya receives letter from embassy, was going to call them after Christmas, I suggested she call from a landline in Laoag, where she was headed for the day (Smart cellphone does not seem to connect to US Embassy). I also asked her to inquire about the Jan 9 date. Today, I find out that we have to have all paperwork to the Embassy by January 9; Ligaya may not even get the official package by then, what with the holidays and living in a remote area. But knowing better now, I did not spoil her (great) mood with any concerns. She was quite happy and I did not want to ruin that. I was angry tho, but I got over it in a half hour or so; I did give the Serenity Prayer a good workout today and it works for me. I called INS after calming down to see whether an extension could be applied for or not, was told once they process initial paperwork, it's up to the consulate, but no extensions are granted to their knowledge. So I think we are in trouble with the Jan 9 date and will probably have to refile and wait another 6 months. Ugh. I know that the consulate is in charge of things here and that's life. Anybody have any words of advice on the process? By the way, the fiance files the Statement of Support prepared by the Sponsor with her paperwork at the consulate. I found that part of the process confusing on the old website but it looks like they have revised things lately.

Last Sept 15, I received notification from INS that we had obtained initial approval for the Fiance (K-1) visa we had applied for, with an expiration date of Jan 9, 2002. I called my fiance Ligaya to tell her and also suggest that she go to Manila ""soon"" and apply for police clearances from HK and Singapore and also the NBI. I also told her that the clearances were required (perhaps a little too sternly, but not angrily, but she thought that they ""might not be"") but I could tell that her mood had changed a bit. FYI, a police clearance is required from all countries in which the sponsee has lived since age 16. Ligaya's intention was to wait for the package from the consulate to arrive before beginning. After a week of trying to contact the consulates from here in the US (Singapore was great, never did get HK, but Ligaya had the info), I took a chill pill and said to her, ""you do what you think best"". Last month, FAXED US Embassy, no response, no idea of what is goin on. January 9 looms. Monday, Ligaya receives letter from embassy, was going to call them after Christmas, I suggested she call from a landline in Laoag, where she was headed for the day (Smart cellphone does not seem to connect to US Embassy). I also asked her to inquire about the Jan 9 date. Today, I find out that we have to have all paperwork to the Embassy by January 9; Ligaya may not even get the official package by then, what with the holidays and living in a remote area. But knowing better now, I did not spoil her (great) mood with any concerns. She was quite happy and I did not want to ruin that. I was angry tho, but I got over it in a half hour or so; I did give the Serenity Prayer a good workout today and it works for me. I called INS after calming down to see whether an extension could be applied for or not, was told once they process initial paperwork, it's up to the consulate, but no extensions are granted to their knowledge. So I think we are in trouble with the Jan 9 date and will probably have to refile and wait another 6 months. Ugh. I know that the consulate is in charge of things here and that's life. Anybody have any words of advice on the process? By the way, the fiance files the Statement of Support prepared by the Sponsor with her paperwork at the consulate. I found that part of the process confusing on the old website but it looks like they have revised things lately.

I am happy to see that post, Joy. Though I know you are not a lawyer and not representing yourself as one, I also believe you are very possibly correct. This could explain a court ruling here that I posted from a newsgroup on the subject when Alex Norbert was trying to determine his status since he was born here, only lived here a few months before he went to the US and became a citizen and wanted to return as a Filipino citizen. That post was about some Filipino judge's decision rendered, that people like Norbert were still full citizens of the Philippines, It stated the US would not take away their citizenship because the Filipino citizen ship had been ""bestowed"" on them, i.e. did not seek it out. The ruling sounded very good for Alex. But later post indicated that the judge's decision did not hold water. Your posting that change has not been ratified sheds new light on the subject. I tried to go to www.pinoylaw.com or some such to get some free legal advice on it some time ago, but did not get a clear answer. Maybe my question was not clear. If you hear or know anymore about this pending change, Joy, please let us know, with citations if possible.

I just saw Ron M.'s post below: I believe that parts of what you mention have already been upheld and ratified by the Supreme Court. Recall the controversy during the last presidential election when Estrada supporters tried to challenge the qualifications of Ozmania? He is a US citizen. The court ruled in effect that once a Filipino, always a Filipino for the purposes of running for public office.

As I said, I read a judges decision that indicated once a Filipino, always a Filipino. But so many recent post of seeming substance seems to indicate otherwise I am now confused. I will try www.pinoyexchange.com where they have a free lawyer to comment on such too. My internet connection is cutting off when I browse. Maybe someone can come up with a firm answer with a citation before I can. Please do try if you have time.

Perceptive observations from you on this subject. I do claim the dubious credit of reporting that expats will sometimes cross the street in the PI to avoid each other (sorry, Ron). Another way of looking at this subject might be to consider that many foreigners go to the Philippines partly to get away from ""their own kind"" and the demands, expectations of their own kind.

What a thought provoking subject! I'd never thought about that, though it is very true. But then perhaps we'd have to exclude a category of expat who has no interest in the country or the people, the ones you find keeping company with each other in bars. I certainly do nothing to seek them out, nor do I have any interest in their motives. I don't know anybody who lives in a gated community ether and have no opinion of them and no desire to seek them out. The few expats I happen to come into contact with are folks who have decided to live among the population for one reason or another. It is this category I think you are speaking to. I'm not sure that I would agree with your assessment because I've never thought about it, but we do tend to avoid one another and you may be right. My interaction with my Filipino friends and neighbors is one of mutual respect. I've been a part of the community for a long time and haven't paid any attention to the ""sirs"" and other courtesies for nearly as long, but then I think I return the same courtesies. Most often when another expat approaches me, he's wanting to bitch or whine about something or get my financial support for some harebrained idea. That is principally why I avoid them, most particularly ones I don't know. I was the only foreigner in our neighborhood for a number of years. Then about 8 or 9 years ago an Englishman appeared. I think we are friends and we see each other nearly every day, but we seldom have anything to say to each other. John lives less than 1/2 km from us and drops by the store to do his grocery shopping and we pass pleasantries, but we don't hang out together. He lives as a native in a nipa house with a common-law wife and 6 children. He does odd jobs for a living and at last report he was driving a jeepney. Shortly after I met John an American moved in about 2 km away. He's the role model for the ""Ugly American"" and I try to visit him once during my stay as a courtesy (his wife shops at our store). He seldom leaves his property (he's afraid of his neighbors). Not the kind of company I seek out. Then there's a Greek fellow who I rarely see about 1 1/2 km away. I think he is of like mind, nice fellow, but we have very different interests and lives. Up toward Toledo there's a large population of Norwegian expats and I have never stopped to talk with any of them (nor they with me), though we do nod and smile at each other. I don't go to the RP to seek out other foreigners, I have no business with them. I see plenty of Americans here. When I visit Cebu on my next trip I'd like to meet with Don and maybe share a tale or two over a coffee. He'll be welcome to visit Mohon as well and as often as he likes, but I don't think we'd be spending much time together and that is nothing against Don! I'll think about it more. But I'm thinking that I don't avoid foreigners because of the way Filipinos spoil me (I think that is more a facade and courtesy). I think it is more that we really have very little interest in each other and if a strange foreigner seems overly friendly, it's someone I want to avoid anyway!

I dare you question my categorically infallible divine declaration you heathenish infidel, disrespector of superior beings and you reject from a maggotorium. Better watch your back the rest of your short life. The dark and bloody angels of violent death seek you at this very moment. Gurrrr! (That ""Gurrr!""is the best anger sound I can make.)

Plea for help from the technically competent. Al Cockrel was very helpful in showing me how to delete that ""Blank"" that always showed up when I sent a message. Thank you Al! (I couldn't resist inserting the ""Blank"" above. If you see it, Al, I put it there, not the program: a jest, unlike Jason who totally lacks a sense of humor.) Maybe you, Al, or someone else can help me again. But maybe it is an ISP problem. Thank all of you who offered to help me before though Al had already solved the problem. The Problem: Most of the time I send mail out I get a bounce from something I have never sent. Or if I did send it, was a long time ago and only once. But keeps bouncing back again and again. I can live with it, but don't want to. I think it is something I sent to one of Bob Martin's friends or Bob Martin because it has a Mindanao address. It says the account is over quota. But I am not sending anything to it intentionally. But I am sending somehow from I can see from the routing. This is it below: The original message was received at Thu, 20 Dec 2001 18:04:20 -0800 from mailsys@localhost

i think maybe the reason that we ignore each other is to try to hide the fact that we have found paridise and are afraid that if we acknowledge this by looking at each other...the dream may fade away...and we will wake up back at work and back to the same old ..

You said it about the traffic in Manila. I did the last of my shopping this morning and am planning on walking the rest of the weekend. The traffic is the one thing that I am in denial over. I refuse to acknowledge it or let it affect my opinion of the Philippines. It really does give the final touch to a surreal city.

Yes, I think that is the answer as I also got the same response when I posted. Bob Martin is probably set up to receive email copies of every post but being under the weather has not cleaned out this backlog and is over his quota (I sure hope he is getting back into the swing of things soon). About the topic of one country not communicating with another about nationality (actually citizenship) or taxes I am surprized about how much they DO talk to each other. When applying for a citizenship in another country we are asked for a police report, medical, proof of solvency, etc. These items are all checked and our countries are informed/asked for verification, and then would likely be told when we become citizens of the new country. Canadians are allowed dual citizenship, as I believe are Americans. Filipinos/filipinas, as it stands, are NOT. This may change in the future apparently. As to taxes I am aware that the U.S. government turns over a list of all Canadians that have accounts in the U.S. to the Canadian government. This must work the other way also. As well as with other countries. Canadian citizens who are residents in Canada must pay taxes on their Worldly income (it is my understanding that this applies to Americans also). On the other hand Canadian citizens who are NON residents only pay Canadian taxes on their Canadian income (again it is my understanding that Americans must still report Worldly income to the US no matter where they live). I could be wrong and if so I would appreciate hearing about it.

Oh yeah, I hate the traffic too at this time of the year, decided to do some shopping this morning at Rustans' Shangrila Edsa it took me about an hour to get there, which on a normal day should only take about 3 minutes drive from our place ...gosh and not mention the enormous crowd at the mall that you have put up with. Anyway, it is the Christmas air that makes it festive and joyous so no point complaining.