No, Lito Osmena and his siblings, including Sen. John Osmena have dual citizenship by birth (hence he has 2 passports) and they were born under the previous constitution where dual citizenship was still allowed. He has since renounced his American citizenship and retained his Filipino one. That was what the Supreme Court upheld...his Filipino citizenship. Once you acquire a foreign citizenship, you automatically renounce your Filipino citizenship because it is not allowed in the current constitution...unless you were born to it...like say you were born in the USA to Filipino citizens. When you reach 18 or 21 (am not sure which), though, you have to elect which citizenship you will retain.

I believe that parts of what you mention have already been upheld and ratified by the Supreme Court. Recall the controversy during the last presidential election when Estrada supporters tried to challenge the qualifications of Ozmania? He is a US citizen. The court ruled in effect that once a Filipino, always a Filipino for the purposes of running for public office.

Well...at least something is computerized in the Philippines...the issuance of a Philippine passport! I don't think it's good to encourage anyone to break the law. For one, the Philippine government does keep track of your income tax. They know if you haven't filed it. Also because that part of the government is computerized. Just because they don't run after you doesn't mean they do not know. Besides what use is a Filipino passport to a former Filipino citizen? She still can own land even if holds a foreign passport. She can come and go into the Philippines as she pleases, they give her a 1 year visa (courtesy of the balikbayan program). If they want to retire here, it's even easier for former Filipino citizens. The Philippine government doesn't allow dual-citizenship but they are working on a law for Filipinos to be able to retain their Filipino Citizenship even if they acquire a 2nd nationality. The law hasn't been ratified yet.

Citizenship issues is kinda hard because you have to actually check the laws at the time of his birth. The Philippine constitution has changed 3 times already since the 1930's (Malolos constitution, 1972 constitution by Marcos and the 1986 constitution by Cory Aquino) and at some point dual citizenship was allowed whereas with the current constitution, it does not. And it would make sense that Alex would retain his Filipino citizenship (hence would maintain 2 passports as a because of his cual citizenship) cuz, just like Lito Osmena, he was also born to it. He didn't seek it. Though, as far as I know...it's not enough to be born here to acquire Filipino citizenship. You have to be born of Filipino parents as well. Am not sure though...I will check with some lawyer/judge cousins of mine and will give an update.

I am happy to see that post, Joy. Though I know you are not a lawyer and not representing yourself as one, I also believe you are very possibly correct. This could explain a court ruling here that I posted from a newsgroup on the subject when Alex Norbert was trying to determine his status since he was born here, only lived here a few months before he went to the US and became a citizen and wanted to return as a Filipino citizen. That post was about some Filipino judge's decision rendered, that people like Norbert were still full citizens of the Philippines, It stated the US would not take away their citizenship because the Filipino citizen ship had been ""bestowed"" on them, i.e. did not seek it out. The ruling sounded very good for Alex. But later post indicated that the judge's decision did not hold water. Your posting that change has not been ratified sheds new light on the subject. I tried to go to www.pinoylaw.com or some such to get some free legal advice on it some time ago, but did not get a clear answer. Maybe my question was not clear. If you hear or know anymore about this pending change, Joy, please let us know, with citations if possible.

I just saw Ron M.'s post below: I believe that parts of what you mention have already been upheld and ratified by the Supreme Court. Recall the controversy during the last presidential election when Estrada supporters tried to challenge the qualifications of Ozmania? He is a US citizen. The court ruled in effect that once a Filipino, always a Filipino for the purposes of running for public office.

Unfortunately, I just don't like most of the foreigners I meet here in the Philippines. I am far from perfect myself, but I find many of them arrogant, as if they do believe they are as important as the Filipinos would like them to think. I guess if you hear ""sir"" this and ""boss"" that, long enough you might start thinking you deserve it.

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ON CITIZENSHIP 1. How is citizenship acquired? Modern law recognizes three distinct ways of acquiring citizenship: 1. Jus sanguinis - or Law of the Blood. Under this principle, children acquire the citizenship of their parents. 2. Jus soli - or Law of the Soil. Under this principle, children acquire the citizenship of the place of birth. 3. Naturalization - the legal act of adopting an alien as a citizen. 2. What law is followed in the Philippines? In the United States? The Philippines follows the principle of jus sanguinis. Hence, children born of fathers or mothers who are Filipino citizens are also Filipino citizens. The United States follows the principle of jus soli. Hence, children born in the United States are American citizens. Both the Philippines and the United States also have laws on naturalization. Hence, an alien in the Philippines can become a Filipino citizen. An alien in the United States can also become an American citizen. 3. What is dual citizenship? Dual citizenship is the status of a person who is a citizen of two or more states. For example, a child born in the United States of parents who are Filipino citizens is both a Filipino (since his parents are Filipinos at the time of birth) and an American (since he was born in the United States). 4. Is dual citizenship recognized in the Philippines? Because Philippine law has no control over citizenship laws of other countries, dual citizenship is unavoidable. Under Law Instruction No. RBR-99002 issued by the Bureau of Immigration on 15 April 1999, any child born of a Filipino parent may now be recognized as a Filipino citizen after submission of the following requirements: a. Petition or Letter-Request made under oath; b. Authenticated Birth Certificate of the child; c. Birth Certificate of the Filipino parent; d. Affidavit of Citizenship made by the applicant's Filipino parent attesting to his or her citizenship at the time of the birth of the child; e. Photocopy of the child's passport; f. Photocopy of the Filipino parent's passport; g. Proof of Filipino citizenship of a parent at the time of the birth of the child other than their passports. 5. If I am a dual citizen, can I file a Petition for Recognition with the Philippine Consulate? No. You must file the petition directly with the Bureau of Immigration at Magallanes Drive, Intramuros, Manila. However, you can have the required documents authenticated with the Philippine Consulate before you submit them to the Bureau. 6. If I am a dual citizen, do I need to obtain a Certificate of Recognition mentioned in Question Number 4 before I can get a Philippine Passport? No. The Certificate of Recognition is not a requirement for a Philippine passport. As long as you are a Filipino citizen, you can get a Philippine passport. 7. How is Filipino citizenship lost? The more common ways by which Philippine citizenship may be lost are: 1. By naturalization in a foreign country; 2. By express renunciation of citizenship; 3. By subscribing to an oath of allegiance to support the Constitution of a foreign country, and 4. By cancellation of a certificate of naturalization as a Filipino citizen. 8. I am a Filipino who was naturalized as an American citizen. Do I have dual citizenship? No, you do not have dual citizenship. You lost your Filipino citizenship when you became a naturalized citizen of the United States. Also, because you do not have dual citizenship, you cannot file a Petition for Recognition mentioned in Question 5. 9. How is Filipino citizenship reacquired? Filipino citizenship may be reacquired through naturalization. 10. Can I reacquire Filipino citizenship without losing my American citizenship? No, you cannot reacquire Filipino citizenship without losing your American citizenship. An applicant for naturalization as a Filipino citizen is required to renounce his allegiance and fidelity to the state of which he is a subject or citizen. In your case, you would be required to renounce your American citizenship before you can be naturalized as a Filipino citizen.

We are planning to move sometime in February, but not yet confirmed. I will keep the list posted on all container/customs dealings. All we can do is hope for smooth sailing. We are probably going to ship extra TVs, computers, etc. in Balikbabyan boxes so as to avoid having to declare more than one of each item. You are only allowed one of each, but I don't know what the penalty is for the extras. It probably is not worth trying to get them through in the container.

Sadly I cannot offer any advice, merely sympathy and an understanding of the frustration. I have issues pending upon which I personally have never gotten a response, my two State Senators have not gotten a response after 5 months, and one actual reply to my Congressman claimed no record of anything even though 6 letters had been submitted, two from the Congressman himself. Sigh. All I can do is wish you well in your effort. If you have any advice that might simplify the process for others following in your footsteps, I am sure they would appreciate your posting a summary of the experience, and how they mind best wend their way through the Embassy Minefield.

I understand what you say. There are two different sets of law involved, Filipino and US. One has nothing to do with the other. Dual citizenship is not allowed on face value in the US, however there are many exceptions. Supposedly when one is born to foreign parents in the US the baby may carry dual citizenship for instance. There was a time when it was required that they had to declare a choice when they reached the age of majority, but that has become optional and a person may choose to never make that declaration. However, whatever the US decides to do with dual citizenship has nothing to do with what the RP may choose to do. While a naturalized citizen of the US must denounce all other citizenship's when they are sworn in as US citizens, their governments may choose to ignore that fact. And that is what the Supreme Court chose to do in the case of ""US citizens"" running for public offices. Osmena didn't have to renounce his US citizenship, though he did publicly when he thought that it would loose votes if he didn't. If the Supreme Court had ruled in favor of Estrada's suit, there would have been many other public officials banned from the election.

No, Lito Osmena and his siblings, including Sen. John Osmena have dual citizenship by birth (hence he has 2 passports) and they were born under the previous constitution where dual citizenship was still allowed. He has since renounced his American citizenship and retained his Filipino one. That was what the Supreme Court upheld...his Filipino citizenship. Once you acquire a foreign citizenship, you automatically renounce your Filipino citizenship because it is not allowed in the current constitution...unless you were born to it...like say you were born in the USA to Filipino citizens. When you reach 18 or 21 (am not sure which), though, you have to elect which citizenship you will retain.

Well...at least something is computerized in the Philippines...the issuance of a Philippine passport! I don't think it's good to encourage anyone to break the law. For one, the Philippine government does keep track of your income tax. They know if you haven't filed it. Also because that part of the government is computerized. Just because they don't run after you doesn't mean they do not know. Besides what use is a Filipino passport to a former Filipino citizen? She still can own land even if holds a foreign passport. She can come and go into the Philippines as she pleases, they give her a 1 year visa (courtesy of the balikbayan program). If they want to retire here, it's even easier for former Filipino citizens. The Philippine government doesn't allow dual-citizenship but they are working on a law for Filipinos to be able to retain their Filipino Citizenship even if they acquire a 2nd nationality. The law hasn't been ratified yet.

Yes it is true,some filipinos abroad are mayabang,my wife encountered a lot of american citizens filipinos like that.They think they're somebody now because they were citizen already..And guess what? the one who acted that way are the one who stayed here less than 10 years...And one of the lady she knows from Ohio doesn't know how to speak her native language already..Her reason was she forgot her own language because she spoke english all the time..And she been here 5 years..My wife been here almost 10 years but still knows and able to speak cebuano fluently.. I don't understand why some of them want to be too americanized..My wife doesn't want to be a citizen because she said she's not going to give up her filipino citizenship since she's really proud being a filipino..Happy Holidays to all!!

Your observations are not unusual, as you know. Ron has expressed similar ones, I feel them and have expressed them too. There are others who have the same feelings some who express them and some who don't. There are some who can't stand the Filipino. They are really confused with the mixed signals they get, and not smart enough to pick up on the simple fact that cultures, even though they seem similar are different. Those sit in the bars with other of the same ilk and sulk. But it sure is had to get them to leave. They are the ones that had groups they hated in the States, more than likely. They had a ""Them against us,"" attitude in the States and brought it with them. And they are not usually crazy about their selves or their drinking partners. If they were not drunk finding fault with the Filipino, together, they would probably be fighting. It takes all breeds. I have said it before, it is an odd bird that flies over here, or at least a different one. And when we start to thing about dealing with ""our own"" we need to think about what we want from relationships. Even in the States, in select groups where I know I have thing in common with the members, I find people I just don't want to be around. Our pool of countrymen is very limited here. And many are square pegs trying to force them self into triangular holes, suffering from frustrations that maybe insurmountable for them, especially if they have had limited experience with people of other culture, even in their own country. The US is a diverse culture. But most of us stay with friends just like us, or have no friends at all except for telephone friends, friends at work, e-mail friends we can keep at a distance. Here there is not structure defined. If you meet another foreigner, what do you do. If you see him on the street in the States, you will probably not make eye contact with him or her. So are you going to go out of your way to talk to a guy you wouldn't even acknowledge in your country, just because you are in the same foreign one? To be safe, stay with Filipinos you know and trust. But to broaden your network of support and intelligence it is good to open yourself a bit, very carefully to some, only slightly to see if there is some mutual benefit and joy that may come from the relationship. You indeed must be careful. I would go so far as to say it is an art that is not inborn in most but learned. It takes effort and is not worth it to some. If so, there effort and the bruises from the certain occasional failure you will no doubt experience. We always speak in general terms here, the only way to we can communicate. And it is a hard thing to do, since we are all so different. We are all civil, but most of us are old enough to feel we have it figured out, if not for every body, certainly ourselves. And that is all that matters. Most of us are wise enough not to push our ideas off on others, maybe because we know that does not work from past failures. It is good we can have these Net friends. And it is good that we can exchange not only information but feelings that are as much or more important and harder to share. I think that is why we look for foreigners to share emotional problems with, some who have them similar to ours. But then we are so often disappointed to find out how different they are from us. They may be looking for revenge while we may be looking to find a way to forgive or vice versa. I will stop this ramble now. I forgot my point, frankly. I had a response to Ron's post, but lost it accidentally and don't know if it is worth putting back together. I will point out that this e-mail stuff seems to be a way to share a lot of thing with a lot of different people without a lot of hostility or risk. Even you and people like Ron and sometimes me who will avoid fellow expats feel comfortable here. Our flames are amazingly low, except for Jason the doubting Thomas. (I am going to stop this nonsense now, Jason. Some new member might take it seriously who have just turned in or someone may read my hopefully comical rave in the archives and be naive enough to think it serious. Thank you for being such a good sport, Jason. I really appreciated your quick rejoinder.

It is wonderful to have you back on the list. You sound like you are in fine spirits, ready to go at it again. Can you please share your experience with us. Threre are many of us, older than you, with a few extra pounds, maybe a bit too much stress in our lives and a bunch of exercise that may be subject to some similar health problems. I know you are taking good care of your self, and if not totally recovered will be soon. I got my visa here. I don't know anyone who got heirs for less than mine, except for one cheap charlie who managed to skim by for $400. Mine was $600 and included standing in the hot Manila Immigration office for many hours. I have mentioned your previous post about how much easier and cheaper they were to get in the States. Some don't have that opportunity as in my case and have to payt the price. But those who can get them in the States certainly should heed your good advice not only to save money but to prevent themselves from suffering in the Manila Immigration office, not a pleasant place to spend the day. Hopefully, one day they will have this stuff so you can get your paperworke done on either side of the pond quickly and at a reasonable price, without bribes. I guess 20 precent of my cost was to ""expedite"" the process. My attorney was going to give me a deal and get it or me for $1,000. That is when I decided to do it myself. At the time it was worth saving the $400. But today, I don't think so. Again, welcome back Bob. I is really good to hear from you.

I find the discussion interesting. What's the job and what's the pay. I agree with those that identify one job. I have a brother-in-law who likes to drive limos. He likes the car and the status of the car, and he enjoys his passengers. That's his interest. Many Filipinos believe that good is limited and success is undeserved, especially from rural areas. They view success as coming from God, not your hard work. Thus if you overpay an employee, in comparison to other employees being paid for doing the same job, your employee will be obligated to give the extra to his extended family. In fact they will hound him and demand it. Your employee doesn't win in this process. The intangibles that have come with jobs - the room and board, the SSS for the future, the health care, are all meaningful benefits that give help to your employee, while not having the extended family attack the core funds. Some of that money does get pooled to help a younger brother or sister get to a higher status. If you are living in the Philippines then learn the cultural logic. You don't have to agree with it but you should understand it. And yes, the urban Manilenos and central city middle and upper class don't adhere to this philosophy, but a good part of the Philippines does.

I'm Tom Glenn, or brotherthomas1936, not an old-timer on the list. I know you only through your highly readable and helpful manifestations on this list. I missed you before, and now I don't. I am exceedingly grateful for a beneficent spirit who returned you to us. After all, you could easily have recovered and decided to go fishing instead of sharing with us again. My all the spirit's blessings attend to you and yours,

As many others in this group, I'm also a relative newcomer. But I have enjoyed your posts and your insights so much. Welcome back in the most sincere way! I am very hapy you are doing well, and that you have decided to continue mentoring us.

Dear Bob Martin and Family, Thank you for your recent post, which allowed everyone to know that you are doing better. I know that there are many who have expressed their well wishes and gratitude for your return. I hope that you don't allow our desires, hopes, and expectations to get in the way of your own needs. My desire for you is to be well and stay that way, for you and your families sake. Of course we benefit greatly from knowing you by your posts, and we'll be here cheering you on to better things. You've already given so much to this list. I hope you are doing exactly what is needed for your good health. In gratitude and appreciation, I/we all wish you the very best Christmas, Happy New Year, and beyond.

Hi ! Very much interested in this topic as I'm courting a lovely filipina now working in Bangkok. I've touched on this with her, but it's something she wants to discuss at length a bit later. My thinking has been leaning toward my retiring to live in either Thailand or the Philippines with her, should we decide to marry; however, I've wanted to leave the door open to living in N.Am. if she's interested in so doing. Now, having read the submission below, I'm prepared for her possible feelings and thoughts of not being keen to leave family so far away. That's fine with me, but I'm happy to be informed of the importance placed on family in the Philippine culture. Thanks for this.

Philippine forces rescue kidnapped Canadian DAVAO, Philippines (Reuters) - Philippine troops and police on Sunday rescued a Canadian man held for ransom for nearly two months after a shootout in which two of his kidnappers were killed, government officials said. Pierre Belanger, 51, a Canadian married to a Filipina, was rescued by a team of troops and police in a village in the southern province of Davao on Mindanao island, Presidential Assistant for Mindanao, Jesus Dureza, told reporters. ""I am healthy, I am OK. The treatment was OK, but to be locked up for seven weeks is not OK,"" Belanger told reporters before he boarded an aircraft in Davao for Manila. Dureza said two of the kidnappers were killed in a five-minute gun battle and police were hunting the others. There were no casualties among the rescuers. President Gloria Macapagal Arroyo said Belanger was abducted by a kidnap-for-ransom syndicate called the Pentagon group. The same gang is believed to be holding Italian priest Guiseppe Pierantoni. Pierantoni, 44, was seized in October from his rectory in Zamboanga del Sur province on Mindanao island, 800 km (500 miles) south of Manila. ""This group is getting weaker and weaker as you can see because there are other victims who are being rescued so I hope that (Pierantoni's abduction) would be resolved soon,"" Arroyo told reporters after meeting Belanger at the presidential palace. ""I believe that having been able to kill two of the kidnappers is going a long way towards neutralising that particular kidnap for ransom syndicate.""

CANADIAN ALLOWED TO USE CELLPHONE After his rescue Belanger, who was wearing a red shirt and blue pants and sporting a long white beard, was turned over to Canadian Ambassador Robert Collette in Davao. He said while in captivity he had been able to talk three times with his wife Necitas and a journalist by cellular phone. He said he was fed fish and chicken. He was given a blanket and was made to sleep in a hut with a floor made of bamboo slats. Belanger said he was snatched on November 3 by gunmen at a beach resort in Davao while attending a birthday party. He said some people made him drink a glass of beer laced with something that made him dizzy. Two days later a friend of his got a phone call from somebody claiming to be a member of the Muslim rebel group Abu Sayyaf and demanding a five-million peso ($96,154) ransom for his release, the military had said. But the military said it did not think Belanger had been seized by the Abu Sayyaf, listed by the United States as a group linked to Saudi-born Muslim militant Osama bin Laden. The Abu Sayyaf, which claims to be fighting for a separate Islamic state in the south of the mainly Catholic Philippines but pursues kidnap-for-ransom as its main activity, is holding American missionaries Martin and Gracia Burnham and a Filipina nurse. The rebels seized the Burnhams and 18 others from a beach resort in May and took them to Basilan, where they seized more hostages. The rebels released some of the hostages in exchange for ransom but beheaded several others, including an American. A Filipino hostage rescued in October said the rebels were demanding a ransom of $2 million for the Burnhams.

This is somewhat related to the topic: ""Secret misery that exists within many Filipina's souls"". I thought I would tell the group why my family and I decided to Immigrate to the Philippines. There are lots of reasons. When I married my lovely Filipina wife, in her town, she was only 22 years old. I was about 37. I knew at the time, that I would not take her from the Philippines (her home and culture), if I could help it. But I couldn't. In my selfishness, need, and love -- I returned back to El Paso, Texas, USA. After the paperwork was processed, she followed me, about 6 months latter. My wife already had good English communication abilities. Well educated. She came from a middle class Filipino family, with a car, and a house better than my home in El Paso. Her family had often had maids, and servants as she grew up. I would say her family was well off, but not overly rich. Middle class. When she arrived in El Paso. She became pregnant quickly, with our first child. We didn't know many Filipinas there. A few, but not many. She found some Filipina friends, but mainly ones which spoke the same dialogue. There was a Filipino Club, but it mainly met on the other side of town, a pretty good distance from us. My wife learned to drive, but still she didn't have many friends. We moved to a nicer house, but we lived in suburbia. We didn't know hardly any of the neighbors well. Not nearly as many of them, as before we moved. I'm not as sociable as I wish I were at times. Most of my friends, were coworkers from the office I worked in. I'd come home -- the garage door would open, and it would close. We had a second baby. My wife stayed home, taking care of the children. It was hard to cope. We tried to get her mother to come visit us, and help. But the USA immigration office in Manila, would NOT let her mother come visit. The office hardly even glanced at her application before refusing twice. I still don't know why. Isolated, overworked and more alone than I wish -- no wonder my wife was frustrated and bored in the United States. In the Philippines, my wife usually stayed at home with her family. She wasn't the type that often went out to party. That worked well for her in the Philippines. But in the United States -- it did not. I had grown dissatisfied with my job. I felt like a ""wage slave"". I had dreamed of living in another country, for most of my adult life. I could get a job in another part of the USA, maybe in a city with lots more Filipinas for my wife to be friends with. But still, I felt that my wife -- would be unhappy. Living anywhere in the USA, in a city, would probably be too much like living in the El Paso suburbia. I had only been to the Philippines once before for a month, when we were getting married. But in some respects Cebu is like Mexico, which is on the border with El Paso. I was pretty sure I would feel comfortable in the Philippines. My wife and I both felt our children would grow up well in the Philippines. I hoped and prayed that our family would do well in the Philippine. We decided to immigrate to the Philippines. It is more complicated than this of course, but we decided to immigrate and move.

A few minutes ago I was writing about my British Passport. I have recently renewed it and thought I should have a closer look at it. It is no longer a British Passport because it has now become a European Passport. Regulations are changing so quickly that advice we are giving this month might be different next month. In a few days time our money coins will change and we will have to start thinking in EURO COINS.

Just found this group today and find it very interesting and informative. I am a Filipino who loves to see the Philippines when time and resource permits me. I have been to SEA countries but would rather spend my money here to help our economy. Places I've been include Batanes, Sagada, Baler, Puerto Princesa, Catanduanes aside from the more traveled path like Baguio, Boracay, Cebu, Davao and Bohol. I usually travel all by myself, meeting people along the way. On three occasions, I was accomodated by local families as there are no lodging houses in the places I visited. I prefer taking the less traveled path. Right now, I would like to embark on a personal mission. That is to make a compilation of all bus, ship, ferry, planes schedules around the Philippines. The most common question asked by travellers is how to get to their intended destination. Or the cheapest way of getting there. Let's take Boracay. The most popular route is taking a plane to Kalibo and then by land to Caticlan and a ferry to the island. I'm sure some of you may be aware of other routes like a ship at pier 12 departs every Mon, Wed and Fri for Boracay via Romblom. Have not taken this route though. Or how can one go to Batanes when there is no more PAL flights to Basco? The lonelyplanet site lists an island in Samar but doesn't say how to get there. Im quite new here and have not read all the previous posts about getting around Philippines. I hope you can share with me informations about this and I am envisioning a web site for all of these info. I'll try to share whatever limited knowledge I have in finding your way around here.

A Filipino explained me once the trick. You have to go first to a neighbouring country. He went to Hong Kong with his Filipino passport. There he took another plane to the US with his US passport. So in the Philippines they think he only went to Hong Kong. No US stamps on his Filipino passport. No Filipino stamps on his US passport.

On December 6, I sent the message below. Since we have 556, of whom 45 are new members who have not been subjected to this recurring post, I send it again. But this time, for the first time I send it with holiday greetings wishes for joy and happiness in 2002. And, I send it with thanks to all the members, who through their participation, patience, courtesy and concern and work, have been able to make it a valuable and unique recourse for those interested in the Philippines for living,, retirement, traveling, doing business, or just the simple joy of being here. So it goes: Dear new members and old friends, We have 511 members now up form 473, Nov 30, so another welcome post is in order. We all welcome you all. Everyone adds some richness and insight to the list, even if it is only the questions you ask. This has become a very large list, very quickly and now has become worthy of spam. So the moderators and I decided to moderate the post of new members. If you are new, your message may not go on immediately, at first because of review. This is also a high traffic list, sometimes 35-40 posts a day, sometimes over a hundred, never none. If there are too many post for you or things you are not interested in, go to www.groups.yahoo.com and switch to ""no e-mail."" That way, you can then read selected messages while online, from the Yahoo site. You can leave them there or delete them. There are many posts in the searchable archives that are open to you and may provide you with some of the information you are looking for and may not even have the questions formulated. I hope you take the time to read those that are important to you and excuse some of them that are little or no value. Please feel free to post on new subjects or old subjects you would like to have expanded or commented on. But if you check the archives first you may find a long comprehensive thread on that subject already exists, well explained, better than the new explanation you will get from your post. In the files section of our Yahoo Groups list, there is a 2.5 megabyte file from our old home, ""Listbot"" with 1,300 or so messages on it, some with valuable information. There are comprehensive post from the time when the list was new. You can download the file. Just click ""Living in the Philippines"" then on ""your groups,"" then click on ""files."" There you will see the compressed listbot file. It was put up by Robert Warren, our resident database guru, who lives here in Cebu. In the photo section you can post pictures of yourself, your family, honey ko's, and Philippine related photos, and even have your own album. Please feel free to browse it and upload to it. You can find pictures of stunning attractive people and some uglies too, (see the ""Herrington"" folder.) If you have a beautiful girl friend(s), please post pictures immediately. :) We have covered a wide range of topics. It is important to stay ""on topic."" What that means is if you want to talk about golf, that is for the a golf list or newsgroup devoted to golf. But if you want to talk about golf in the Philippines, this is where to do it. Off topics posts are a list killers. People join this list to get information about what is going on here in the Philippines and how it relates to them and here. We all try to provide that. Occasionally I may ban a topic that is related but is just too volatile to moderate for such a large and diverse group of people. Every rule is not in the book. Just use your good common sense about commercial posts, posting someone else's post (give them credit,) remember this is a non profit non commercial list. When one of the moderators or I say a topic is banned, that is the end. Please respect our judgment, flawed though it may be. We don't do it often. If you want to discuss it, do it with me off list. Maybe we can come to some kind of compromise, best for the list.

This list seems to be the one place where people are interested not only in the ordinary practical problems like cost of living, transpiration and others, but the challenges of relating to the culture can discuss them for the expat point of view. soc.culture.filipino, a long time and successful newsgroup, rarely addresses the issues we do in the depth we do. I guess that is because it is a newsgroup where they tend to the express opinions, but not always from experience and not as structured an approach. There are a lot of arguments, flames, and arguments there. Most are counter productive But that news group is valuable too, in it own way. If you are involved in a relationship with a Filipina or Filipino you may find the Mag-Anak Yahoo list very helpful too. We complement one another. The URL is www.mag-anak.com. Ray Bacon, also a member of this lists is a fountain of information in that and other areas. You can get a lot of guidance from men married to Filipinas successfully and unsuccessfully on this list too. In the archives there are free pen pal sites, legal in this country. Some are involved in relationships and are on their way over here to meet their brides to be or just girlfriends. We may refer you to websites for answers that we don't have or don't have the time to get into. Please be aware our advice carries no guarantee. Mine is only about 60 percent right on good days. There are so many new members, living here, with all kinds of expertise, I can't name them all. We have people who are knowledgeable from as far north as Baugio and far south as General Santos City. David Harrison, Billy Reese, and Thomas Glenn are moderators. Both Dave and Billy are married to Filipinas. Dave is an editor of a highly respected US business daily, who kindly tries to clean up after me sometimes. Tomas is a world traveler, with a bent for the eloquent. When he posts I am sure you will enjoy it, whatever it is about. Billy is very helpful and always there to help when we need him, technical whiz that he is, in addition to his expertise he shares with us, and his interest in and knowledge of the Philippines. I live in Cebu City, single, at the moment, but plan to marry to Ani from Leyte soon, if common sense does not get to her first or the bureaucracy does not delay us even more. We have a some Filipina wives and some other Filipinas married and single, and a number of Filipino men. I am not sure of the demographics of the list, who is Filipino, British, Norwegian,American, male or female because I don't ask those questions. As long as people are interested in living, traveling, retiring, playing or even doing businessmen in the Philippines and they follow the list rules, they are welcome. Some members are experts in various fields Some have experience from running businesses, visas, US and Philippines, travel domestically and internationally, but no expert on romance, as yet, here or anywhere I know about. We do have a water expert, several who know a lot about alternative energy sources, pig farming, organic and hydorophonic gardening, culture, different places to live, and others. These are some of the things you may be interested in getting involved in when not relaxing with a local woman, or man, as the case may be, and local libation, be it alcoholic or not. We have some members who have businesses and post opportunities on the list. There is no problem with that as long as it is not in the body of the post, but in the signature block or reasonable size.. If you do, please let me know. We don't allow post on businesses that may be illegal or controversial to the extent of concerning our Filipino hosts. Neither I nor Living in the Philippines endorse any business proposals. Let the buyer beware, as in all business, especially in a country well know for corruption and unethical business practices, like all other developing countries and many developed ones. We have decided not to post on the terrible attack on the US, because there are better places to post on that subject. Please respect that decision. Everyone here is, of course, very upset about it. There are many lists devoted to it. This is not one. Personal attacks, Flames, are not allowed. Attacking anyone, as we all well know, accomplishes nothing. We have had very few problems in this area. Attack the position,if you will, but for sure not the person. If someone does, a moderator or I will immediately remove the offender. As I am sure you all know, mailing list are not a democracy. If they were, their survival rate would be even shorter. All list die. This one will too. Lets keep it alive and earn from and enjoy it while it lasts. This is not a place to grind your axe, especially if you don't know the languages here and don't have a through understanding of the culture as few non Filipinos do. That certainly includes me. After many years here, two Filipina wives in the last twenty plus years, about quarter million needy Filipino relatives, moderating this list for a several months and a lot of study I am still only superficially aware of what is going on. There are others on this list who know much more than I do about many things. But they don't know it all, nor do our very helpful Filipinos. But together, we make a pretty good resource, maybe the best you will find on the Internet or anywhere else for living, retiring, investing, traveling, and doing business in the Philippines. Our web page has a link to a full free book, ""The Mind of the Filipino,"" by Leonardo Mercado. It will enlighten you and is fun to read. And the site also mentions Culture Shock: Philippines, also valuable but not free. You can get it at the bookstore or on line. If you really want to have a happy life or visit here, reading these books and others can be a first step. If you have never been out of your culture you really don't know it. If you come here and get to know the Philippines or any other vastly different culture, you will have the added benefit of understating you own better. Again, welcome to the Living in the Philippines. I hope it provides you information, and even dear friends, as it has me. And I hope it will make your life happier where ever you are and where ever you are going. Just in case you have not read the""official"" list description, I post below: If you have read it or are already experiencing overload. just ignore it. Living in the Philippines: Devoted to helping foreigners who are interested in cheap quality living in a friendly English speaking country get the necessary information to successfully travel and even become an expat in the land of smiles, beautiful people, beaches and mountains. Information on culture, customs, cheap quality education, places to travel in and around the Philippines, cost and location of hotels and permanent lodging, tourist and permanent resident visas and just abut anything else you may want to know about the Philippines. The only rules are no personal attacks that sometimes may occur when heated disagreements arise. No name calling is allowed. And no Filipino bashing is acceptable, none. There are few Filipinos on this list to defend themselves and they are generally such kind and gentle people that they don't need to do so. If you don't understand the culture here, or the country well enough to understand the Filipino/as, this may be just the place for you start. To understand them enough to fully enjoy them and yourself, you may want to learn some of the language, customs and even live here for some time. You will find it a joy indeed.

I am confused about this, maybe because I know so little. Since he has a Philippine passport, he came in on, it has an arrival date in the Philippines stamped in it. And his US passport he has with him also when he leaves had a Philippine entry stamp in it also. Then he exits the Philippines and has an exit stamp on it from the Philippines. But when he show up at the Hong Kong airport to leave using his US passport, it still shows him in the Philiippines, di ba? He has no exit stamp in his US passport from the Philippines. I have heard a lot of these schemes but never saw one that worked without bribes or dishonesty. What am I missing?

I hold 2 British passports both legally obtained. This is allowed (albeit reluctantly) in some cases where one can show they often need to travel on business. The case recently arose where I needed a visa to enter country ""X"" and it would take a long time to process the visa application so I gave them my passport ""B"" (in fact I had to courier the passport from the RP to an agent in London to get the visa). I had entered RP on passport ""A"" and I had to extend my visa at the Bureau of Immigration. So, when the time came to travel I had to use passport ""A"" to exit RP and passport ""B"" to enter country ""X"" I have been in similar situations many times and never had a problem with it. In practice I have found it exceedingly rare when entering any country that the immigration authorities have any interest to see an exit stamp from the last point of departure. Indeed, this would be a futile exercise in any case as when traveling in/out of EU countries they don't usually place entry or exit stamps in passports anyway. The fact that my visa for country ""X"" was issued in London but I had never traveled to London on that passport was of no concern to anyone either (both my passports were issued by the British Embassy in Manila). If asked where is your exit stamp from your last point of departure you can simply say they did not stamp your passport, which is likely to be true if you traveled from Europe. In any case no one could produce evidence dispute your claim.

I've been lurking for a few weeks reading the various posts here and the articles on 'The Pearl Of The Orient', to further enlighten myself about the Philippine life. Even after doing pre-trip research and being there 3 times, I am still learning a lot about their culture. I just finished phoning Tuburan, slight drizzle and cold, (70 some degrees); she laughed and said I could probably tolerate it. Meanwhile, I'm dealing with snow flurries. She told me the new cinder block CR is up and functioning to everyones satisfaction. Back in January I put a new roof on the structure, then typhoon Naning dropped a coconut tree on it and the outside kitchen. So I got the privilege of rebuilding it, financially speaking that is. I'll do my ""inpsection tour"" in May. To all of you, where ever you are, have a safe and Merry Christmas.

The answer is yes, for some. I don't think you can draw a single conclusion because everyone has their own experience and opinion. Just as I think it is wrong to characterize all expat Filipinos being sad and unhappy, you can't characterize foreign expats in the RP as being homesick, lonely, etc. Though I'm not the kind of expat you are addressing since I divide my time, I certainly don' t go to the RP to be homesick. If the trip was not a pleasant one I wouldn't go. If I were to choose to live in the RP full time and found myself being homesick and unhappy, I wouldn't stay. My feeling is that these are questions only each individual can answer for themselves.

I married a Nicaraguan woman in Managua. She and her three children followed me to California nine months later. At my most creative I could not have anticipated the hidden and subtle slings and arrows that befell them. My wife was a ""gringoista"" from day one. She loved us. She hated the Sandinistas (I just kept my mouth shut about that.) The two girls were put into an immersion program and taught completely in English. I suppose that program can be done well, but with appropriately trained teachers and positive good will from the system. Both girls are in college now: scholarships and loans. The youngest girl has never opened up to me about what she went through from there to here. I remember seeing her sobbing over a middle school text book at midnight more than once. And both girls were convinced along with their mother of my cruelty by usually referring them to the dictionary for the meaning of a word. It would have been very simple and without the guilt if I had just given them what they wanted. But, late night with a paper due or an exam next day I always helped. The oldest girl (she'll be a senior at Mount St. Mary's next year) leveled with me. I usually brought her home for the weekends and that gave us some time to talk of this and THAT. She finally spilled the beans. She didn't particularly like it here. She could have received a better education in Nicaragua and comprehending most of what she was taught. She resented being torn away from her friends and HER place where she had her own status or value in the estimation of her peers. I understand well this part of it. For me the eighth grade on was my most stable period in all of my education. I went to two different junior high schools and three different high schools were I had to try to make first string on two different varsity football teams. Always the odd one out. Never felt quite on par with my associates. I literally felt like I lived on the other side of the tracks. I was, internally. That early in my life I felt more connection with the blacks and the Latinos I went t! o school with. I cannot say that our experiences were approximately the same, I just have no idea. I do remember that I didn't feel legitimate enough to presume on their goodwill and acceptance. Different with my daughter. All that I claimed was the right to informed empathy with her. I was left speechless one afternoon when she finally opened up the pool of bitterness she had felt all those years for having been deprived of HER culture. As much as I love Nubia there is really nothing I can do to help her patch up that gap in her life. Oh, maybe hold her hand once in a while (when she is not noticing) and find out how to forgive myself someday. If I were ever to seek to remarry in the Philippines it would be only on the basis of remaining in the homeland. I would never wish to return to the ZI. Perhaps selfish, but I think I've paid my dues. May the God or Goddess of your choice bless you and care for you and yours,